The Restoration Playbook Podcast

Building Leaders: Chuck Lane Full Video
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Chuck Lane: [00:00:00] So this is something that I have seen and struggled with no matter what the content, no matter the passion, the excitement about it from different people is number one, look yourself in the mirror and tell yourself you're not going to get everybody on board. There are always going to be the people that are trailing or just don't buy into it. And I think if you try to always strive for a hundred percent, I've got to get everybody on board. I've got to get everybody believing in the mission.

I think you're going to struggle more than necessary.

Travis Martin: Welcome to the Restoration Playbook Podcast, the show where we dive into the real strategies that help restoration companies build stronger teams and better businesses. I'm Travis Martin, Vice President of Product and Marketing at KnowHow, and today's guest is Chuck Lane, the VP of Learning and Development at BluSky Restoration Contractors, one of the biggest and fastest growing restoration [00:01:00] firms in North America.

Chuck's background spans healthcare and emergency response management, and now, he helps with designing the leadership and training systems in the restoration industry. In this episode, Chuck Shares why promoting your best technician can often backfire, the two traits he uses to spot leadership potential on the front lines, how to train teams when CAT season threatens to derail everything and why the best leadership lessons don't happen in training rooms, but in job site chats, hallway conversations, and coffee breaks. Here is a great quote from Chuck: Every difficult conversation with an employee is an opportunity to get better at communication, coaching and mentoring. Without giving too much away, let's just say that if you are serious about building a culture where leaders grow from within and not just get handed a [00:02:00] title, this episode will show you what it really takes.

Let's get into the conversation with Chuck Lane.

Go to tryknowhow. com.

Chuck Lane: My name is Chuck Lane and I'm the VP of Learning and Development for BluSky Restoration Contractors and this is how I think about building leaders.

Travis Martin: Awesome. Chuck, I appreciate you taking the time to chat with us. Really excited to explore these areas. In relation to how do you develop and train staff, how do you build a culture and a company that is passionate about investing in teams and continuing to mentor and equip workers for what that next level is, and helping define that and create like a continual growth loop, not only at the staff level, but at the whole company level but before we get into that, I was wondering Chuck could you just give a [00:03:00] background on your story how you got into restoration and your role at BluSky.

Chuck Lane: Yeah, absolutely. So, backgrounds widely varied really started out in logistics back with FedEx back in the day. Old enough to say it was actually Federal Express at that time. And then really fell into healthcare and within that did a few different things emergency management, disaster response, but fell in love with training very early in my career.

Got some really unique opportunities to go get certified and teach classes, work with a diverse set of people and spent really most of my career since. Doing that in some form or fashion, right? Had different responsibilities along the way, but the key kind of tie that binds was always training and just a immense passion for developing people and helping them fulfill their potential and see their potential came into restoration in 2019, was offered a unique opportunity [00:04:00] at the time to be a, the director of training and education for SRP contractors we had offices in the Mid South region.

Uh, met the guys that ran the company at that time, Dale Sharp, Dave Robbins, and Chris Popwell. They said, Hey, we want you to come in and not only work with our employees, but work with clients and educate people about. What we do, right? What is the industry about? What are some of the risks? What are things people can prepare for?

So took a career in emergency management and spent some time as well. Still work with them a little bit with FEMA as a department of Homeland Security instructor. So, took a lot of that knowledge, learned about the restoration industry over time, still learning today. Started out in 2019, in 2020 we were acquired by BluSky uh, was director of training for them for a couple years, was offered the opportunity to promote up to VP of Learning and Development about a year ago.

And really since [00:05:00] then, just been building up the training programs and trying to set the stage, not only within growth, uh, for what everybody needs to know and understand is how to operate in the business, but also what career development looks like for them in the future.

Travis Martin: When it comes to learning and development in the restoration industry, I really feel like BluSky is a pioneer and one of the most innovative companies in this regard. However, there is some companies, they will. philosophize about what it could be, and it just, the rubber does not hit the road.

I think that BluSky is doing a good job with both a clear vision about what training and learning and development could look like in the restoration industry, and then also bringing that to life. So Chuck, I wonder, could you start just by give me the high level [00:06:00] vision of what you want learning and development to look like at BluSky.

Chuck Lane: Yeah. Learning and development is something we talk about it. You get learning and development and then you get training, right. And training, I think of a lot as kind of a skill system or process, right? I can train somebody to do this thing, or I can train somebody on how to use this system, or maybe I can help them develop a skill.

But learning and development really, to me, is about culture and it's about relationships. And Organizations such as BluSky where as we've grown, we've built this out, especially when you're dealing with mergers and acquisitions and a lot of different things going on, you have to really get everybody rallied around that culture of learning and what that means.

And my vision for the future and what we've been trying to implement over the past couple of years is this very seamless flow from what does onboarding look like for a new [00:07:00] employee, how do we get them up to speed, but then what are their career development opportunities look like, right? How do we help people grow?

And just because you're a restoration technician today, Doesn't mean that you can't be a project manager, maybe a business development manager, a VP someday, right? Running your own office. We're trying to look at not only training from a sense of what do I just need to show people to do their jobs, but I want to see people come in, stay with the organization and have opportunities to grow, and there's a lot of moving pieces to that that are very difficult, honestly, sometimes to implement because of the very nature of our industry demands focus right now, right? So even things like IICRC trainings and basic certifications that we try to push. Right. As we move now into June and hurricane season, sometimes best laid plans go out the window with the wind and the rain. So there's a [00:08:00] constant battle back and forth with how do we get people what they need, but then also how do we help them grow and thrive?

And articulate that vision and that, to your point about philosophizing the future and, hey, this all sounds good on a podcast or looks good on paper, but how is it truly impacting the employees? And that's really my mission that I want to know in five years, ten years, that the programs we've implemented today have helped somebody else grow and realize.

The potential they thought they had, or maybe even the potential they didn't realize they had.

Travis Martin: There's a lot to explore there. You talked about the importance of it not like it being a cultural thing, right? Versus just a training program that we sign people up for. But what I want to dive into, at least right now is that second piece that you're talking about, which is, How does this plan [00:09:00] handle the real world and just the hurricanes and the storms?

Mike Tyson said, everyone's got a plan until they get punched in the face. And so how do you go from that vision to just practically in the midst of all the other fires that are burning, sometimes literally advancing the ball, right? To me, it almost feels like a football game where you're not always going to go for a Hail Mary.

Sometimes you just want to see, the ball move forward a few yards. Like, how do you tactically take ground in that area?

Chuck Lane: So we used to have a saying a lot. I think it probably originated in the military, maybe in the Marine Corps. But used to say a lot in emergency management as well as Semper Gumby, right? Always flexible. So we talk a lot about when is the best time to roll things out and when do we position these opportunities?

And so what I can tell you is awareness [00:10:00] and communication are the two biggest things, right? So awareness as anybody who is in training or learning and development, I would say within any industry, but the restoration industry, especially, you have to know your customers and you have to know what they're facing.

And there's certain times a year that you just have to be careful about what you plan for. Because if you're looking at, Hey, August and September sound like a great time to roll out this training, you know, that in general, At least certain areas of the country, you're going to struggle with that. So you need to be able to go, okay, do we push them first?

Do we push them through the program later? How does this work out? Really just the flexibility to move things around and deliver content in different ways too, right? There is a mindset within the training industry, and this is not by any means to knock any of my learning and [00:11:00] development colleagues, but when you build something out and you're really excited about this program and then you roll it out and then things happen, right?

So whether it's a CAT event or something else that just disrupts it, you have to be willing to move things around on the burner. Right. And so it doesn't mean you throw it all out the window, but the way I've tried to build programs is that it's easy enough for me to close that box up, set it off to the side, put that pot on the back burner, and then roll it out at a more appropriate time.

It happens, right? And so just the awareness of that, and then the communication to people about expectations within those timeframes is, hey, we're pushing this out quick because we're trying to get it done before hurricane season, or, Hey, we're postponing this because we don't want to overload employees.

In the middle of our already very stressful [00:12:00] time.

Travis Martin: Chuck the elements that I hear you talking about there, which totally makes sense to me. First, you got to understand the context. with which this training or this initiative at a higher level is going to be received. I can sit behind a desk and create this massive program that I am convinced is going to fundamentally transform the knowledge of the people that are receiving it, but if I don't have good understanding of the context that they're receiving it.

Maybe that there's a big CAT event that just came in for whatever reason, maybe there's something going on at home. They have to receive that information and digest it. And if I'm not thinking about who's receiving it, the context they're receiving it, it's just not going to land the way that I hope. Is that right?

Chuck Lane: Yep. A hundred percent.

Travis Martin: And then I also hear you saying like it has to be, it has to be somewhat nimble, right? You have to [00:13:00] recognize that your plans will have to encounter the real world, and the real world has its own agenda at times. And can you bob and weave with the other million things that are important on any given day in order to drive the ball forward in maybe small chunks versus one giant sprint?

Chuck Lane: Absolutely. And so another one, you know, the Mike Tyson quote, and the other one is no plan survives first contact with the enemy, right? And the enemy is the real world the day to day, the things that we're bumping up against and understanding too, as you grow a business, as you scale things, everybody else is trying to get their thing done as well, right?

So your sales leadership team is trying to push things out. Your operations team needs to get this done. Your senior executives have visions for things that they need to push. Your marketing team is [00:14:00] all these different groups, regardless of the size of the organization, small, medium, or large.

Everybody's kind of trying to get their stuff done and they're all being pushed with different urgency and attention for this. And so that goes back to the communication piece is, are you working collaboratively? Are you managing your stakeholders well to get everybody on the same page so that you don't have a big training rollout in Q2, Q3, whatever it is that also coincides with some major event from another department.

And that is something that the larger you grow, the more difficult it is, right? Human beings we talk a ton, but we're actually pretty poor at communication It's, I sent an email, I didn't read it. I get 150 emails a day, right? There's a lot to it to manage those programs effectively and try to balance that time.

Travis Martin: Chuck, [00:15:00] imagine that you are, I don't know, going out for a beer or drinks with a few other people who have been charged with exactly what you think about all day. How do I get my organization trained, developed, skill them up. And I imagine it's a decently common complaint objection, which is they don't read my emails.

I get 15 minutes at the all hands and everyone's checking their phone or chatting with their buddy or thinking about the game. What would your advice be to people in that situation where like they are passionate about it and they're just having a hard time sparking that fire among the people that, they're the ones that have to care if we're going to hit these outcomes that we're driving towards.

Chuck Lane: So this is something that I have seen and struggled with no matter what the content, no matter the passion, the excitement about it from different [00:16:00] people is number one, look yourself in the mirror and tell yourself you're not going to get everybody on board. There are always going to be the people that are trailing or just don't buy into it.

Maybe they think they have a better idea. Maybe they're just disengaged period, right? That we all know the people who I'm just here for Friday, right? There, there are those people. And I think if you try to always strive for a hundred percent, I've got to get everybody on board. I've got to get everybody believing in the mission.

I think you're going to struggle more than necessary. So what I always focus on are my champions, right? Now I might spend some time and energy to see if I can move somebody From that detractor side, maybe I need to spend a little bit of time with them to get them to understand the why. Maybe the communication that I've sent out so far is not, it's just not gelling with them.

They're not getting it. So maybe there is a one on one [00:17:00] conversation, especially if that detractor is somebody with influence. And I think a lot of times when we look from an office perspective or a regional perspective, we want to go for the boss, right? We go with that kind of authoritative, push it down, tell them they got to do this.

And in some cases. It's necessary, right? At some point you, you do sometimes have to tell people, look, I get it. I understand it, but this is the way it is. And this is what we have to do, but you're much better working off of influence. And so in that case, I want to find the person in the office with the voice.

And that may not always actually be the leader. That may be the project manager that's been there 10, 15 years that everybody goes to with questions. That might be the restoration supervisor or superintendent, maybe a technician, right? Could be any number of people. I want to get that person on my side. I want to help them understand why we're doing it.

And then I want them to help me [00:18:00] spread that message because that hallway conversation, that cup of coffee that somebody is complaining about this new rollout. And I said, well, you know what? I actually talked to Chuck about this and here's really what they're trying to accomplish. And. I'm going to actually give it a chance.

That communication right there, that buy in is going to go way farther than any email from, Captain Title, right? You know, the VP, the CEO, whatever, because the local influence, these are the people that are doing the stuff every single day. They're the ones that have to implement it. And that's why I really firmly believe in getting those local people to buy in and communicating with them as to why we're doing what we're doing. And so if you're pushing everything down as just a, hey, we're doing this and here's why, and you're encountering struggles, really think about who you're communicating with and how you're communicating with them. [00:19:00] And see if you can get those people on your side because their influence will carry a lot.

Travis Martin: I think a lot of people probably think when you say, Oh, you got to focus on communication that this is an air war, right? Where I'm sending out emails and I'm making announcements on the company intranet. And what I hear you saying is this is a ground war. Like you got to be on the ground talking to the people with influence, finding out what's important to them.

Why are they on this side of this issue versus that side of the issue? And how can I help them understand this in a way that's meaningful to them? Is that correct?

Chuck Lane: Yeah, absolutely. If communication is two ways, right? So emails, you could argue, well, an email is two ways or whatever, but most people get an email, they read it. And then only if I have to respond and spend the time and energy to respond to it, am I going to. But it's funny. You bring up having a beer or having a cocktail or whatever.

I find that most of the really productive conversations happen in that environment. They happen [00:20:00] after the conference at the happy hour. They happen at the dinner table amongst a group of colleagues. They happen in a hallway with a cup of coffee in hand, right? This is where I think those things change.

And this is why BluSky has settled a lot over the years that We gather, right? It's been a very common theme and truth be told, that's where I get a pulse for things. You can get information out of a survey or somebody may tell you what they're thinking. But what I really want to know is when I go out and talk to people and where the barrier is down a little bit and we're a little bit off guard.

Hey, what do you really think about this training program? How effective is this? Cause the numbers can tell me this, the data says this, but is it really working? Is it driving the results that I think it is? And the best way in the world to do that is to go out and talk.

Travis Martin: And that's where you get that feedback, too, of what's not working. [00:21:00] And, if you're just in your office, you can sit frustrated that you're not seeing the results you want, but until you're on the ground, until you're making those human to human connections, you don't know for sure. And all you can do is hypothesize.

Chuck Lane: And it's,

Travis Martin: Sorry, go for it. No,

Chuck Lane: Oh, sorry. I was just going to say, it's very difficult to do at scale too, right? The amount of time that you could spend on the road, on the phone, on meetings trying to catch up with people is difficult. And so I think there's a lot of that is what are you doing to build relationships?

When you can, so that somebody feels comfortable enough to reach out to you and speak to you. And it's one of the dangers of growth where I'm remote and I travel and I communicate with people primarily through Teams and Email. And so it's very difficult to build relationships. So you have to be very intentional. the larger you get as an organization.

Travis Martin: On that note of intentionality, I know that BluSky is not only very [00:22:00] intentional when it comes to learning and development, but you actually intentionally advance this area of leadership development as well. And I know that your colleague, Simone Kelly, is at the forefront of that. Can you tell me a little bit about how BluSky thinks of learning development?

Learning and development, leadership development, how do they co exist, where does the Venn diagram overlap but how they also are both kind of advancing things side by side, but they both have their own specific outcomes that they're driving towards.

Chuck Lane: Yeah, absolutely. So when you think of learning and development, you know, that covers really everything from before an employee even starts, right? Cause we, we start that communication as soon as they accept an offer and move through the process of onboarding. And then what I would call career development and additional opportunities.

That's really where that learning and development space runs into. And then anything that does fall under that training, again, the skill, the system, the process of, hey [00:23:00] we're doing software rollout. So we need to make sure everybody's up to date on this. That's a lot of where we live on the L& D side.

Leadership development. And I think this is one thing that works really well is because it's focused. It's not diluted with one week, I'm planning a session for developing emerging leaders, and then the next week I'm trying to figure out how to teach people to use a software system. The leadership development portion of our organization that Simone is building out and has done great, great things with, and some of the programs she's put together is really focusing on. The current leadership, how do we enhance their skills, right? How do we get them to that next level? Not only to be effective leaders of their people, but be effective leaders for the business, right? So there's all these different [00:24:00] components from people management and people leadership. To finances and understanding how businesses run and how things scale, right?

If you've got an office of X size today, how do you grow it to Y? And that is a very focused effort that she's been tackling the past two years is building those leaders and getting them ready. And then also looking at the next generation of leaders, right? Succession planning who's coming up behind and how do we identify those people and get them prepared before they're in the seats?

We use the term emerging leaders a lot, right? But when you're looking around the office and you're seeing these people who. Are showing those leadership tendencies, not just good at their job, right? Cause I think that's something we have to watch out for, not only as an industry, but in general, when we're looking at leaders is, are we promoting the person who's really good at their job, or are we promoting [00:25:00] people who are showing true leadership qualities, empathy, communication, right? That strategic mindset of growth and people development. Because one of the quotes that sticks to me a lot, I'm a big Jocko Willink guy. And it's the whole quote about it's all on you. But it's not about you and moving into leadership, those are those qualities that you're starting to look for and figure that out.

And so that's been a big focus the past couple of years is getting current leadership, what they need to be successful, but also starting to look at, who's coming up behind us in a couple of years, even with my team. I'm always looking at how do I help grow my people? If something, hopefully not right, but if something were to happen to me I like the idea that there's people who could immediately step up and start taking things on.

Would they have growth? Sure. Would they need to learn some things? Absolutely. But building those teams [00:26:00] internally and organically to move forward is a huge piece of that strategy.

Travis Martin: I think the fact that at BluSky you make a distinction between, these are like technical skills that you need to know in order to succeed in your role. However, just because you are strong technically does not necessarily mean that you're going to be a good leader. I think a lot of companies make that mistake where it's, hey, this person's been around.

They answer every phone call anyways, why don't we just promote them to leadership? And they often find that the skills that you need to successfully mitigate a water loss are different than the skills you need to motivate a team member who just doesn't understand why they should go above and beyond on this job.

Can you help me [00:27:00] understand What are those like leadership specific qualities that you're looking that you like to see among that next generation, those emerging leaders, right? I'm putting myself in the shoes of a manager who says this person is good technically, but they're a little rough around the edges.

I see this other person where maybe they don't have the technical prowess that the first person does. However, they seem to have a way with people. Can you help me identify what are those hallmarks that someone might be an emerging leader, even if right now they're just slugging it out on the front lines?

Chuck Lane: Yeah. So I think it's two things and it's the observation of how do they lead themselves. And how do they lead other people? And that's, we think a lot of leadership as a title, right? Well, you're not leading people unless you're this, but we lead people all the time. And I think it's, do we set an [00:28:00] example?

So the way I would break that down is as people are leading themselves, is this a person who shows emotional intelligence? Right, are they willing to pitch in and help or do they have the it's not my job mentality? I think that's an immediate warning sign that if they think I'm only going to do this, or I'm only going to focus on this cause it's outside of my scope, then they're probably less likely, I won't say completely unlikely, but less likely to be successful as a leader.

Because as soon as you start moving up, you now take on things that may not be in your area of responsibility. Technical skill is good. But there's a reason that some people are phenomenal individual contributors and they do very well in their job. But when it comes to taking care of others and being there for the people on your team, the emotional intelligence and the empathy, I think if somebody is not displaying [00:29:00] characteristics of those, they're a non starter as a leader.

There's a lot of argument about how much you can teach empathy and how much you can teach emotional intelligence. But in my opinion, and based on what I've seen over the years, the best leaders I've worked for cared about the people. The business has to run, but happy people with the proper technical training.will run a business very effectively. And the whole concept again, of, there's no bad teams, only bad leaders. You can take a dysfunctional team. If you put a strong leader in there, you can generally turn that team around. And I think where we struggle a lot when we're looking to promote people is.

This person is very good at their job, so it's the natural progression that we bump them up. And it's very, it can be very [00:30:00] dangerous to do that because that person may not be able to deal with other people that well. And sometimes I've seen this and I've actually been through it personally. Your high performers, when you promote them too early they can burn out and they can get very frustrated with people who aren't up to where they think they should be. So your best leaders, the ones to look for. The empathy, the emotional intelligence, are they willing to coach? Are they patient, right? And then do they see a big picture? I think big picture of looking at things holistically is a very important piece of identifying a future leader.

Travis Martin: A few things that I pulled from that, Chuck, there's the emotional intelligence piece. I think, like you said, ownership thinking, right? You know, our buddy Jaco has a lot to say about that. Are you patient? Can you see the big picture? But what I hear, the [00:31:00] underlying root of it is do you genuinely care about people or not?

And if the answer is yes, we can give you the technical skills. We can teach you how to have hard conversations. with people but if the answer is no, it's going to be obvious to those you're trying to lead. Is that correct?

Chuck Lane: I would, yeah, I think that's spot on. If you don't care about your team you can push for the metrics, you can push for what you need to get done and you can hit on the business stuff, but people will follow someone who they believe has their best interest at heart. And if the only thing you're pushing your team for or leading your team is to hit this number or do this thing.

And then you're not acknowledging them as people you're going to struggle. And I think we're seeing that extremely heavily the past couple of years where, and I've said this before, I think when I talked to Paul on the podcast is that people are done. They're just [00:32:00] not willing to work for bad leaders anymore.

Now they might stay because they need the job in the interim, but as soon as they get an opportunity to leave, they're going to, and a bad leader will absolutely destroy what used to be or what otherwise should be a very high functioning team because people's tolerance for it anymore is life is too short and I'm not going to, I'm not going to stay, or I'm not going to deal with that if somebody Doesn't care about me.

Travis Martin: And that's why BluSky is putting so much emphasis on developing leaders. And hey, once we identify these people, giving them the character qualities and the training that they need in order to lead those people well.

Chuck Lane: And I would add on to that too, that it creates when you invest in leadership development and you really start to build that culture around, this is what BluSky or this is what any other [00:33:00] organization says leaders should be and how leaders should act. What you then begin to do is you start to notice who's not living up to that standard, right?

And when you get a consistent level of expectations around leadership, around employee culture, it really starts to highlight those people who may have been I hate to say this this way, but right. Maybe kind of lurking in the shadows for a while, right. They were able to get away with it and they were kind of, maybe they hit their numbers or they did this, but when you start looking at it from a different level, What's the turnover like in that office, right?

What's the culture at that local level? Are these people who would, fall on a sword for their leadership? And you can actually have, I would honestly say in some cases, you could have a poor organizational culture, but you can have an amazing local culture because of a great leader [00:34:00] and vice versa.

You could have a great organizational culture, but have a terrible boots on the ground culture in an office because of a poor leader.

Travis Martin: To me, it feels if you, as like the senior leader, it's the owner, are trying to figure out where you should be investing your time and energy, there's no higher impact than investing it into that leadership management layer, like that is where you're going to have the biggest impact on the overall health and culture of your company.

Is that what you're saying? Totally,

Chuck Lane: very accurate. And there's studies and research that kind of proves that out. If you look at a lot of data that generally speaking one kind of common complaint just in business as an overall industry anymore is that there's a lot of initial training for, maybe onboarding or the technical skills, and then your very senior people get opportunities, [00:35:00] but those emerging leaders, those newer managers, historically, don't get a lot of attention, right?

And that's one of the things that we've really tried to change, not only the opportunities, but that narrative internally is how are we getting these people to not only go, okay, here's how I do the functions of my job as a leader, right? As a VP or a senior VP, RVP, whatever the case is, but how do I now help them understand what it's like to be a leader.

Part of Simone's program that she implemented was Ken Blanchard situational leadership model. And situational leadership I think is hugely impactful and we've seen the benefits of it, right? Because every employee is different. Every employee's needs are different. I've had employees throughout my career that needed a ton of attention, right? And others that just said, hey, just need to run this by you, but otherwise I got it. And if you manage those employees the same way, [00:36:00] one's going to have a really bad time. So that looking at it that way. It is a very important piece of how are you developing I would say that frontline leadership and that middle level because you can't just focus on the top and you can't just focus on, well, I got technical training because I can tell you from experience, moving through leadership and management, my first supervisory experiences, nobody taught me anything about leadership.

It was not even management to a general degree, other than maybe employment law, right? Hey, you can't say this, you can't do this, but how to actually be a leader. I was one of those people that I figured it out along the way, and I'm still learning every day. And it is an ongoing process.

And I'll say this, not to belabour the point, but one thing about training is I think a lot of people go, well, I'm going to go to this class and I'm going to leave here fully equipped to go do what I need to do. [00:37:00] And it's just not the case. And it's a horrible mindset to either communicate to your people that's, what's going to happen.

Or as a participant of training, if you're thinking about leadership and go I'm going to take this class and I'm going to be a great leader. It just doesn't work that way. And people may say I don't have that mentality, but it is a consistent application of every time you work with an employee, I have to go back and self evaluate.

How did I handle that? Did I apply situational leadership correctly? Was I a good coach? Did I listen more than I talked? Or did I talk too much? Did I try to give them all the answers instead of helping them find the solution? So there's a lot of. A lot of moving parts to it that for me, at least, I believe that I'll be learning about leadership and until I'm out of work, right out of the industry, retired, sitting on a beach somewhere, hopefully.

Travis Martin: I [00:38:00] think a lot of people think that learning and development is an event. It's a course you sign up for, right, you clear a space on your calendar once a month to do some learning and development, and what I hear you saying is it's a process, and it's a lifelong process, but you can imagine just the the frequency of touch points, if you view it as a process that can happen multiple times per day, just the compound interest by the time you're 40, 50, 60, compared to someone who went to a quarterly event, right?

Yeah. like how many more learning and reflection and opportunities over the course of that person's life have they had to develop and grow themselves? It's a remarkable difference.

Chuck Lane: Absolutely. I would look at it as every experience is a learning project, right? Every difficult conversation with an employee is an opportunity to get better at communication and coaching and mentoring. Every project that goes [00:39:00] sideways, every. failure, right, which I've said this for years and I say it all over the place, but FAIL is an acronym.

It stands for first attempt in learning. And I love that ever since I've heard it, because every time that you think, well, I didn't, if I didn't get trained to do this, or I didn't this there's no way to equip everybody for every eventuality. It's really the giving people the tools and then giving them scenarios to help them understand how to use them and when to apply them.

But the only way you're going to get better at coaching is to coach. The only way you're going to get better at situational leadership is to apply it in every interaction you have with your team. So I've really adopted that mindset, especially over the past few years of I'm taking concepts that I learned in a class or read about somewhere.

And then the application of those is where I'm really truly learning.

Travis Martin: I want to dive into how you [00:40:00] measure your progress in this area. Like we said, you always have competing priorities. It's very easy to measure whether the restoration jobs are successfully being completed on time. And if you're hitting your margin, it's harder to understand if you are hitting these goals around training and development.

So how do you guys think about that? Like, how do you parse out hey, this was a good quarter. This is a bad quarter. This is, this has been a particularly slow year or two as far as moving towards these goals that we have for training and developing our team.

Chuck Lane: Yeah. So really depends on a lot of different things within programs and what you're measuring, right? So there's the base layer that we apply across the board is, did they like it? So somebody attended a training and, Hey, was it beneficial to you? Did you feel like you learned something?

You feel like you're going to go back and apply this. And. 1 thing I'm very proud of is [00:41:00] generally our training initiatives receive very good scores, right? We use the net promoter score system. And so we are well above industry benchmark on pretty much all of our internal classes and a large majority, even of our external because.

We want to pair with good partners, right? We want to have good vendors that are coming in to work with the organization. So if somebody doesn't meet that standard, then we know, hey we don't want to work with that partner anymore because they're not delivering things to our standard.

So that's one across the board is measuring. Do they like it? The next really big thing that I look at is trying to track behavior change. All right, so are we noticing that maybe in certain ways, it's do we have better customer surveys, right? Or are if we're doing some sort of technical training, right?

Maybe is it that these documents or this paperwork is now getting filled out with far less errors, right? So really tying it to what is the objective of the [00:42:00] training? And then what are you measuring that against? Lots of different ways to do that again, depending on if you're looking at a software system, you might be able to actually say, okay, we're noticing this issue, or we're rolling out a new system.

We want to make sure people are doing A, B, and C. Now we've done the training. Now, I need to go back in and look at this, right? One thing, give you a very specific example that I look at is a confidence survey, and that's something we send out at 90 days and one year. And what I'm looking at is just from the employee's perspective, do they feel that they are more confident in their role at 90 days than they were before?

On their first day. And then do they feel that they are more confident at one year than they were at day 90, right? And there's a lot of caveats to that. And there's a lot of things behind that could go [00:43:00] into. Was it the training? Was it just because maybe they had a great mentor? Maybe that again, they've got a strong office.

Maybe they're just a really determined self starter, but what I'm looking for when I send those surveys. Is those pockets of, do I have people who, they were very confident at day 90. Now they're not so confident at a year. If I have that, then that's a big trigger to notify me that something's missing in that day 90 to one year mark.

So then we need to start looking at. Is it a skill issue? Is it issues with systems? Is it processes? Whatever it is, but the ROI piece with training programs, depending on what you're determining as ROI can be very difficult to measure. And a lot of, I think, learning and development leaders and people in that space.

They struggle sometimes. And I have as well to say, well, I can't necessarily guarantee you that I implement [00:44:00] this program and you get X return on your dollars, because some of it really is, in my opinion, feelings based. So you could look at it and say we did leadership training and now we have lower attrition rates, right?

We have less turnover. Was it solely because of the leadership training? It's hard to say, right? But it's probably a good indicator that if you've got better leaders, you might have less turnover, right? Now in certain jobs, you're going to have attrition rates and things are going to be there. But what I'm always looking for, the best way I can put it. Is what is my objective for hosting the training? And then what am I going to measure to determine it was successful? So it may just be, hey, this is a kind of a general session and it may just be that I hope you like it and hopefully that it was helpful to you because we're doing a, [00:45:00] an hour on this topic.

But what I also might look at is we're investing a significant amount of money and time. into talking about contracting, or something of that nature. And so then what I want to look at is, okay, how are we tracking improvements? Are we now getting better contracts? Are we improving something with financials, right?

What are those metrics that's actually tied to it? And I think a lot of people, especially if they're not in the training space or the learning and development space, they say we need a training on this. And they're not actually thinking about what is the desired outcome and then how are we going to measure that is, it was successful.

So I always tell people work backwards, right? What behavior do you want to change? What metric, what needle do you want to move? And then go back and figure out your training that's going to move that and determine how you're going to measure it.

Travis Martin: I think that's [00:46:00] such an important piece, Chuck. As humans, we just focus on our own inputs so often, right? We say I delivered the training, I sent the email, what more can I do, right? Instead of, like you talked about, reverse engineering why were we having that training in the first place? What wasn't working or what needed to get better?

And do we see evidence that is better or improved because we've delivered that training? I also just think it's so smart this confidence survey where like your barometer of success is how do employees feel? Not did I, as the trainer, say the words, that if they heard it, they would, they would be successful, but do they feel more successful?

Like they are the ones that are helping you understand if you're moving the needle or not in the right direction.

Chuck Lane: Absolutely.

Travis Martin: I've got one last question on this topic. And then we've got a few rapid fire questions [00:47:00] that I'll send you. But when it comes to developing just the training arm of BluSky, how do you think about whether you kind of contract that out to third party experts, do you bring on full time trainers?

I've heard some companies say, hey, we try to ensure everyone has someone that they view as a mentor on staff. Other people say these mentors are getting too many phone calls and like how do you guys think about all of that? Whether it's in house, whether it's external, third party, what's the right balance there?

Chuck Lane: So I'd love to give you a ratio. but I don't know that one exists because it's the glorious, it depends. But, yeah. In my experience, and this is my personally held belief, I like internal subject matter experts. And I've actually got some things recently [00:48:00] that kind of proved this out where did large scale training and our internal trainers were very well rated and the feedback was exceptional, right?

Because in my opinion, the short answer to this is it's probably easier for me to identify subject matter experts. And turn them into presenters and trainers. Than it is to bring in somebody from the outside and try to have them understand my culture, my people, my business model in a short time, that's going to be effective because in reality, most of your external vendors, not say this harshly, but they don't care, right?

They're selling a service. So they're coming in to teach a class on whatever it is, and then they're onto the next one. Now, there are great vendors. We have some that are true partners. They say, hey, we want to tailor this to you. We want to really make sure we're working closely. [00:49:00] Those are the ones that I will keep as external.

And sometimes it is best to bring in somebody from the outside with wider experience that can really speak to something and say, hey, I've been doing this for 20, 30 years, and here's what I've learned. And there's absolutely a time and place for that because the broader the experience, the better it can be.

But I would say if you're looking at internal training, internal development, especially for things that, again, go back to skills, systems, your processes, when you're teaching other people, how you want them to perform. Most businesses, right? Their thing is they're arguing that they do it better.

Or they do it a different way, and that's what makes them successful. So if you're doing it differently, you're doing it better, and that's what makes you successful, why in the world would you farm that out to somebody who's going to come in and teach this generic way or [00:50:00] generic process? I would rather invest the time in helping build the confidence of people to go out and teach and train and be mentors.

And not only does that give them some additional skills, right? And maybe that helps prep that leadership pipeline because now they're working with different people, they're solving problems, but it gives you somebody internally that you can go to. That you can reach out to. And you do have to be measured with it, right?

Especially if you've got somebody who you say, okay their day to day job is this, and then we're going to ask them to train something. They cannot be the focal point. So you have to be very careful about what's L& D or your training department or training person's responsibility. And then how are you utilizing other people within the company that still have to do their day to day job?

They're nine to five or nine to nine, whatever it is on any given day in our industry, but I like vendors. They're [00:51:00] not always my first choice. Unless it's something that is either generic enough that I just need the skill taught and we can apply it internally, or it's something where maybe the cost of it doesn't really work internally, right?

Or maybe I need some expertise where, hey, this is a certification that I need somebody to get, and it's really not cost effective budget wise for me to send somebody internally to go through all this to get these certifications. And then come back and teach internally. It's really just a, it's really a balance of it, but certain things absolutely outsource so that it doesn't have a single point of failure and can keep moving.

But a lot of things, especially if we're going to say that it's unique to us. I like internal.

Travis Martin: And can you help paint a picture for me? What does it look like tangibly? What are the cadences [00:52:00] for your staff? Is it morning meetings? Is it a weekly roundup? Like what does that look like when it comes to just how you schedule it all out to make sure employees are getting that training that they need?

Chuck Lane: Yeah. So we have things that occur biweekly, monthly, where it's an onboarding cadence where people get, this routinely. So as we onboard new employees, it flows like this. And that's a lot of what my team manages. The other piece of it is scheduling. Could be monthly, could be bimonthly, could be quarterly.

If we're doing certification classes, maybe it's Xactimate, maybe it's IICRC. Maybe it's just opportunities that we've brought in externally or that we're hosting internally. Do we say, hey, you can join this session. A lot of it is again, communicating out the opportunities. So every month we send out a scorecard for training, and then we say, hey, here's what people are interacting with.

Here's how we're doing overall as a company. Here's your region, here's your office, [00:53:00] and then here's the opportunities. All right. So if you have somebody who needs a certification, here's what's coming up. If you have somebody who is going through a program that they need to take that next class to get their certificate or, to move up, whatever it is, here's when this is available.

So we, we run a pretty good operating cadence of continuous offerings and trying to get those in front of people. Because again, if, if you do it one or two and done. If I miss that class, I, I can't do anything about it. So we run things pretty routinely to make sure we don't miss people and that there's enough opportunities out there that people can jump in a class.

Travis Martin: Awesome. Chuck, I've kept you for a long time. Do you have three more minutes where I can hit you with some rapid fire questions? If not, I understand. Okay. Hey, I appreciate. Okay, so a few rapid fire questions to close things off here. First we've been asking leaders. I really like this question.

What are some of those like [00:54:00] timeless truths or, nuggets that you've held onto as a leader, slogan, motto, something like that, that you come back to? I see one beside you on your wall there. Don't quit. I wonder there's any others as well that you've held on to that have helped you as a leader.

Chuck Lane: Yeah. So one of the things that I heard very early in my career from a leader that I very highly respected was similar to the Jocko quote of it's, it's all on you, but it's not about you. But he told me, basically said, if you look around and your people are going through hell, make sure they understand you're going through with them.

Travis Martin: Hmm

Chuck Lane: And I don't know if that gets to the shared misery or not, but I think the worst thing you can do for leadership is for your people to feel like the weight of the world is on their shoulders. And then look over at you and it doesn't [00:55:00] appear that you care, right? And there's a difference between carrying that weight differently, where you may be very resilient to it and not as stressed, but if your people don't feel like that you're in the mix with them, it's a bad thing.

Travis Martin: That totally that's a great one a similar theme for this last question here If you received any advice or feedback or lessons from a leader that you had that really was instrumental in help shaping you to become the leader that you are today.

Chuck Lane: Yeah, the biggest one for me was manage your emotions. I am by nature, a fairly expressive person. And I'm also one of those people when I feel comfortable with you, I will let you see a little bit more of me and the further that I've moved up into leadership, I've had to understand that is contagious.

So it's sort of a, um, your team should see you have emotions, [00:56:00] but you have to be very careful about letting your team see you too angry, too sad, too happy, anything, right? Because a lot of terms now, toxic positivity, toxic negativity, right? That's all contagious and your team will pick up on that.

So being mindful of the tone you are setting was something I had a leader tell me early on, and I've had leaders remind me of at times. Right. Because I can be that person that gets a little comfortable and not overly emotional, but I might say things, or you can pick up on that tone and you have to be very mindful.

The tone you're setting for your people.

Travis Martin: That's great. Chuck, I really appreciate you giving us your perspective, not only on how you've become the leader you are today, but how BluSky thinks about cultivating that emerging leader at your organization. So thanks for hanging out with us.

That's a wrap on this episode. Huge thanks to Chuck Lane for pulling [00:57:00] back the curtain on what it takes to develop leaders in restoration and for reminding us that great leadership isn't about titles or tenure; it's about people. If this conversation got you thinking differently about training development.

Or what leadership looks like on the front lines, hit subscribe. We've got more like this coming your way. And if you've ever watched a technician stall out because they didn't have the answer, our next webinar is for you. It's called On Demand Answers. Meet the redesigned KnowHow, and it's happening on June 11th at 1:00 PM Eastern Time.

In a world where Uber Eats and Amazon Prime and instant Google searches set the pace your team expects instant answers. This 45 minute session will show you how the newly redesigned KnowHow is built to meet that expectation giving your crews step-by-step guidance in the moment they need it. You'll get a live walkthrough of the new platform, hear real [00:58:00] world use cases, and learn how leading restoration companies are using KnowHow to boost on the job confidence, execution speed, and maintain consistency across every job.

You can register using the link in the show notes or head to try knowhow.com/resources to save your spot. Thanks for listening to the Restoration Playbook Podcast. See you next time.